‘Proportionate’ response ludicrous’

Ann wrote:
This is a letter to the editor of my hometown paper which I wrote in response to another letter. It was interesting to me to read the comments. I obviously provided a morning's entertainment for some people! A

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‘Proportionate’ response ludicrous’
Published:
Sunday, January 11, 2009 2:20 AM CST

To the editor:I grew up in River Heights, graduated from Sky View and USU, and went to graduate school (Middle East history) at the U of U. My roommate for two years was a very religious Shiite woman from Iran. A dear friend was from southern Lebanon. My major professor was from Nazareth. For the past 27 years I have lived in northern Israel. My husband and three of my children so far have served in the Israeli army.The entire issue of “proportionate response” is absolutely ludicrous. As the former U.S. ambassador to the U.N., John Bolton so eloquently asked last week, what is “proportionate response?” Does that mean that every time a rocket is fired from Gaza into an Israeli city at a civilian target, Israel should then return the favor by firing a rocket from Israel into a populated civilian target in Gaza? Does that mean that every time snipers from Gaza take aim at farmers working in their fields in Israel, Israel should send snipers to shoot at shepherds in Gaza? Does that mean that every time a bus is blown up in Israel, the same should be done in Palestine? The fact is, “proportionate response” rarely exists in real life, in any context.There is no doubt that the current war in Gaza is causing horrific suffering. The Israeli army has taken every step humanly possible to avoid civilian casualties. It has even been suspending fighting every day for three hours so that humanitarian aid can be taken in to the civilians. Some of that aid has actually been provided by Israel itself. Jordan, Turkey and Qatar have provided much of it. The rest of the Arab world has provided none. Many injured civilians from Gaza, especially children, are currently being treated at Israeli hospitals. Others have been taken to hospitals in Jordan and Egypt. Again, the vast majority of Arab nations limit their humanitarian help to vituperative rhetoric against Israel.

Attacking Gaza is not something Israel has wanted to do, especially knowing that because Gaza is so densely populated there would undoubtedly be high civilian casualties. For eight years Israel has complained to the U.N. about continued rocket attacks from Gaza on our civilian populations. The U.N. has done nothing. In 2005 Israel completely pulled its military forces out of Gaza, forcibly removed Israeli civilians who were living there and destroyed every last building built by Israel within Gaza territory, with the exception of the synagogues. This was done with the agreement that the rocket attacks would stop. In the three years since then, more than 12,000 rockets and mortar rounds have been fired into Israeli civilian populations.Unfortunately, the civilians on both sides are the victims, as they always have been in any war in history.AIsrael

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 8:50 AM:
" http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ieVUkWZeyBTYws258fKn2UJfICxAD95JMMA82GENEVA (AP) — The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights called Friday for an independent war crimes investigation in Gaza after reports that Israeli forces shelled a house full of Palestinian civilians, killing 30 people.Navi Pillay told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council that the harm to Israeli civilians caused by Hamas rockets was unacceptable, but did not excuse any abuses carried out by Israeli forces in response.Pillay went further in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp., saying an incident in Gaza City this week "appears to have all the elements of war crimes."The U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said Israeli troops evacuated Palestinian civilians to a house in the Zeitoun neighborhood on Jan. 4, then shelled the building 24 hours later. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 8:52 AM:
" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5488380.ece"ISRAEL has sought to justify its military attacks on Gaza by stating that it amounts to an act of “self-defence” as recognised by Article 51, United Nations Charter. We categorically reject this contention.The rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas deplorable as they are, do not, in terms of scale and effect amount to an armed attack entitling Israel to rely on self-defence. Under international law self-defence is an act of last resort and is subject to the customary rules of proportionality and necessity.The killing of almost 800 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and more than 3,000 injuries, accompanied by the destruction of schools, mosques, houses, UN compounds and government buildings, which Israel has a responsibility to protect under the Fourth Geneva Convention, is not commensurate to the deaths caused by Hamas rocket fire.For 18 months Israel had imposed an unlawful blockade on the coastal strip that brought Gazan society to the brink of collapse. In the three years after Israel’s redeployment from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. And yet in 2005-8, according to the UN, the Israeli army killed about 1,250 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. Throughout this time the Gaza Strip remained occupied territory under international law because Israel maintained effective control over it. "This article has the signature of 28 officials and/or professionals. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 8:56 AM:
" http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=81455&sectionid=351020202"Switzerland has demanded for an international investigation into Israel's likely violations of humanitarian law in the Gaza Strip.In a Friday statement, the Swiss Foreign Ministry said that the humanitarian situation in Gaza in the wake of Israeli raids on the coastal strip is "nothing less than catastrophic”.The statement also condemned Israeli attacks against humanitarian organizations in Gaza, which has significantly hindered aid efforts to the beleaguered strip which houses 1.5 million residents." "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:00 AM:
" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsjIsrael's current assault on the Gaza Strip cannot be justified by self-defense. Rather, it involves serious violations of international law, including war crimes. Senior Israeli political and military leaders may bear personal liability for their offenses, and they could be prosecuted by an international tribunal, or by nations practicing universal jurisdiction over grave international crimes. Hamas fighters have also violated the laws of warfare, but their misdeeds do not justify Israel's acts.Israel had not suffered an "armed attack" immediately prior to its bombardment of the Gaza Strip. Since firing the first Kassam rocket into Israel in 2002, Hamas and other Palestinian groups have loosed thousands of rockets and mortar shells into Israel, causing about two dozen Israeli deaths and widespread fear. As indiscriminate attacks on civilians, these were war crimes. During roughly the same period, Israeli forces killed about 2,700 Palestinians in Gaza by targeted killings, aerial bombings, in raids, etc., according to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:05 AM:
" http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGIOR410032009〈=e AMNESTY INTERNATIONALPUBLIC STATEMENTAI Index: IOR 41/003/20099 December 2009Amnesty International calls on Security Council to establish full accountability for crimes committed in Gaza conflict and for deployment of human rights monitorsAs fighting continues in violation of the UN Security Council's near unanimous adoption last night (8 January) of resolution 1860 calling for an immediate and durable ceasefire in Gaza, Amnesty International calls on the Security Council to take firm action to ensure full accountability for war crimes and other serious abuses of international human rights and humanitarian law." "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:12 AM:
" Ann Hansen wrote." It has even been suspending fighting every day for three hours so that humanitarian aid can be taken in to the civilians."Israel was forced to do this by pressure of the international community. They did not volunteer this, they did not want to, they were forced to. Indeed they violated that 3 hour truce and continued to bomb during that time. Recall the words of LivniL"Israel’s foreign ministry quoted Livni as saying there is “no humanitarian crisis”."There is no humanitarian crisis in the Strip, and therefore there is no need for a humanitarian truce."Throughout the past six days, approximately 422 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli Air Force raids, while more than 2000 Palestinians have been reported injured. This conflict comes on the heels of an 18 month-long humanitarian crisis in which Israel has literally strangled the people of Gaza by keeping borders closed, and blocking international humanitarian aid from entering Gaza.According to the Palestinian Independent Commission on Human Rights, “80% of the population [in Gaza] are living on less than two dollars a day, unemployment hovers at 60% and just 195 factories remain open out of 3900 in 2005." This assessment came weeks before Israeli commenced its military operation on the Gaza strip, which has been admitted in Israeli media that it had been planned “for months”.Despite the “facts on the ground”, Livni continues to masquerade around Europe showing her utter contempt for the lives of Palestinians by claiming that there is no humanitarian crisis. "http://www.imemc.org/article/58285It was only after hundreds of thousands of protesters throughout the world, pressure from the United Nations, the Red Cross and other humanitarian relief entities that Israel agreed to this 3 hour proposal.This is nothing they initiated because they are such good war criminals. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:20 AM:
" Self defense and proportionate are not ludicrous terms. They are in fact defined by international law and United Nations members are subject to those laws.Preemptive self defense is also not legal.For instance Israels paranoia about Iran does not legitimize bombing Iran under the misuse of the phrase self defense. "

orion wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:23 AM:
" It is not until the powers of the earth get past greed, religious superiority, and the "eye for an eye" mentality, that hope for lasting peace may be realized.One would think mankind would have learned something in the last few thousand years. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:23 AM:
" In citing John Bolton in this letter supportive of international law violations and Israeli war crimes, she could not have chosen a more biased neo con.John Bolton is in favor of taking Palestine and giving Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan. John Bolton has supported Israel and the Israeli lobby in Washington 100 percent of the time.http://www.counterpunch.org/barry07272006.html"Last summer the Senate rejected the nomination of Bolton, a right-wing ideologue fiercely opposed to all international laws and institutions that constrain U.S. power. Overriding congressional concerns that Bolton would be an ineffective UN ambassador because of his long history of criticizing the United Nations, Bush appointed Bolton to the post during the August 2005 congressional recess.A year into his term, which expires in January 2007, Bolton has energized his supporters, won over some critics, and pleased the president with his own brand of cowboy diplomacy. With congressional support running high for Israel's war against Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian territory of Gaza, the White House has resubmitted Bolton's nomination.Bolton received strong support from major Jewish organizations during last year's confirmation hearings, and these same organizations are gearing up to mount a strong pro-Bolton lobbying campaign this time around. Among the Jewish groups that supported Bolton during the first hearings were the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), B'nai B'rith International, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA). " "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:27 AM:
" Ann said:"My roommate for two years was a very religious Shiite woman from Iran. A dear friend was from southern Lebanon."AnnAttempting to disguise yourself as a unbiased, Muslim lover by using your past room mates and friends from countries that Israel has and/or would like to preemptively strike is disturbing. It was also obvious. Your use of these friends to justify your position or eliminate your obvious neo con bias is a huge insult to all Middle Eastern people of conscience.Ann said:"My roommate for two years was a very religious Shiite woman from Iran. A dear friend was from southern Lebanon." "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:46 AM:
" Ann,Since you are such an accomplished Middle Eastern Scholar you must remember the Zionist Militia described by Albert Einstein as fascists and by Isaiah Berlin as Terrorists. Among other things they are recorded in history for waging a campaign of violence against the British and the Palestinian Arabs, the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem with huge loss of life, the hanging of two captured British sergeants, and the massacre of villagers at Deir Yassin. 1946-1948 "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:48 AM:
" Des,Can you just stick to listing links rather than cutting and pasting an entire publication to the board? "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 9:58 AM:
" Does Ann also know Israel which controls Gaza as an occupied territory must operate under international law as an occupying force. That they have been an occupying force for many years. And as an occupying country they did not even allow the people of Gaza to fish withing 3 miles of the Gaza border. Does she know that they systematically put in place blockades to starve the Palestinian people, deprive them of fuel, food, medical supplies. Does she know that Israel controls every border of Gaza, including the Mediterranean and blocks any relief effort to these 1.8 million people who have no nation, no army for defense other then Hamas who was democratically elected to provide for their common defense? "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:06 AM:
" Des,It's interesting that your postings don't mention rockets fired from homes and mosques. You think Amnesty International is only concerned with Israel to this humanitarian end? While the following link mentions Israel forcing residents to stay in their homes while taking them up as sniper positions, I'm not convinced this is a human shield tactic as in when Hamas comes in to a house, launches rockets from it, then bail knowing full well the house will soon be targeted with return fire. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818122.stmOr this:http://www.rightsidenews.com/200901063218/global-terrorism/hamas-exploitation-of-civilians-as-human-shields.htmlFrom it:'The terrorist organizations' doctrine of using human shields was inspired by Hezbollah's tactics in Lebanon and by the lessons they learned from the terrorist campaign they have been waging against Israel since 2000."Hamas' biggest, baddest weapon is the perpetuation of a propaganda campaign. I guess that makes you a tool. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:07 AM:
" Bluto,No. Sorry but I am not putting entire publications in. To quote the words of the hundreds of thousands of protesters around the world "We will not be silenced"The entire publications would be better but very long.There are volumes and volumes of books written on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. One that is recommended is "The Much Too Promised Land" "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:10 AM:
" Bluto,Many of my posts from the last letter dated Jan 9 and entitled "War cannot be propotional" do so lets not start lying.Here:desertique wrote on Jan 10, 2009 12:21 PM:" This conflict is decades old. The occupied territories will continue to resist until grievances are addressed. Israel will continue to respond, many say the response is disproportionate thus leading to further retaliatory actions throughout the world.I like what Rabbi Michael Lerner has to say about the issue. His calm yet somewhat biased voice lends understanding to both sides.Israel's attempt to wipe out Hamas is understandable, but stupid. No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day. If Mexico had a group of anti-imperialists bombing Texas, imagine how long it would take for America to mobilise a counterattack. Israel has every right to respond.He is one of many Jewish voices that acknowledge that Israels across the border raids into combined with the siege on the Palestinian population was a compelling reason for Hamas to began their rockets firing once again.Here is the article by Rabbi Lerner entitled "It breaks my heart to see Israels stupidity"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece"But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas's indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel's killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel. " "In addition almost every article I post includes rocket firing by Hamas. If you read the article you will see that. Would you like me to post the entire articles to prove this?I can. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:14 AM:
" Des,I didn't read most of your posts on the other letter. I'm not lying. Let's stick to the facts surrounding your propaganda campaign as it is presented on THIS thread. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:14 AM:
" The imbalance favoring Israel lies not in a failure to post the obvious that is rocket fire from the occupied territories but a failure to post the Israeli incursions, humanitarian blockades, war crimes and violations of cease fires.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestiniansIn Gaza, a Hamas spokesman, Fawzi Barhoum, said the group had fired rockets out of Gaza as a "response to Israel's massive breach of the truce"."The Israelis began this tension and they must pay an expensive price. They cannot leave us drowning in blood while they sleep soundly in their beds," he said.The attack comes shortly before a key meeting this Sunday in Cairo when Hamas and its political rival Fatah will hold talks on reconciling their differences and creating a single, unified government. It will be the first time the two sides have met at this level since fighting a near civil war more than a year ago.Until now it had appeared both Israel and Hamas, which seized full control of Gaza last summer, had an interest in maintaining the ceasefire. For Israel it has meant an end to the daily barrage of rockets landing in southern towns, particularly Sderot. For Gazans it has meant an end to the regular Israeli military raids that have caused hundreds of casualties, many of them civilian, in the past year. Israel, however, has maintained its economic blockade on the strip, severely limiting imports and preventing all exports from Gaza." "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:17 AM:
" Bluto,These are the facts whether you want to read them or not. I do not expect you to. It is up to you.But every article has documented facts.It is your choice.My choice is to discover the whole truth, not just the history as written by the United States government and her client state. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:17 AM:
" Des,It doesn't matter that pieces of articles you post might go against your campaign. What matters is the chunks of these articles you select to carry on as a tool for Hamas and Hezbollah. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:18 AM:
" Does anyone here doubt for a minute that Iran-loving desertique hates Jews/Israel? Maybe she should just proclaim that to us all and then shut up. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:22 AM:
" Bluto,This is fact,http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/un-human-rights-gaza-zeitounThe United Nations' most senior human rights official said last night that the Israeli military may have committed war crimes in Gaza. The warning came as Israeli troops pressed on with the deadly offensive in defiance of a UN security council resolution calling for a ceasefire.Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, has called for "credible, independent and transparent" investigations into possible violations of humanitarian law, and singled out an incident this week in Zeitoun, south-east of Gaza City, where up to 30 Palestinians in one house were killed by Israeli shelling."In addition Israel has admitted to bombing a United Nations school in Gaza killing over 50 innocent civilians. This after the UN provided Israel with GSL coordinates so they would not hit the school.Hmmmm "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:24 AM:
" Des,You're not much a fan of the USA. Why study here at all? Why not go to Gaza yourself and perpetuate your campaign. You could stand on a corner with one of those billboards that drapes over your body front and back.OK, I'm just being mean and you know I like you. You certainly are well informed on the ins and outs of the propaganda campaign against the US and Israel. You represent the terrorists well and someone's gotta do it. There are two sides to every issue, right? I have to admit I'm impressed. You've developed into one helluva good writer and I love it when we are on the same side of an issue. We probably won't be on this one. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:26 AM:
" Kent,There is not hating Jews or anyone. In a compelling conversation with my Jewish mother we both came to the conclusion that being Jewish does not mean we are Zionist. Similar to being Arabic or Persian does not mean we are terrorists.I do not expect you to understand this but you could give it a try.Here is some rational for this line of thought from one of my mothers favorite Rabbis.Here is the article by Rabbi Lerner entitled "It breaks my heart to see Israels stupidity"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece"But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas's indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel's killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel. " "There is a strong Jewish response and opinion that the actions of the Israeli government are unacceptable. There is also strong opinion that the bombings are being carried out to shore up public support ahead of the Israeli elections in Feb. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:28 AM:
" Des,The only "fact' there is that the UN is condemning Israel for defending herself. Much like they did when we went into Iraq with one hand tied behind our backs. It also says they "may" have violated human rights. What would you expect a person with the title "most senior human rights official of the UN" to say?The UN is pretty much a joke anyway and I hope we don't move into a train of thought that asks the UN for permission to defend ourselves. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:29 AM:
" Keep in mind that being a good writer doesn't make what's being written correct. Heck, there are plenty of good writers across the country who write junk columns in newspapers. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:33 AM:
" Bluto,It is both my duty and my right to question the actions of my government. Are you to say I should be silent to avoid the appearence of unpatriotic?Are you saying that as an American citizen I should shut up and never question our foreign policy, our actions, our decisions.Are you going to tell Ron Paul that he should not be allowed to run for President because he does not support IAPAC, current foreign policy and aid to Israel?Are you telling Jimmy Carter that he should not longer consider himself a former President and citizen of the United States and to move elsewhere?The list is endless. I am not the only citizen of the United States that opposes Israels actions both past and present.More then 65 % of democrats are opposed to ongoing aid to Israel and her actions as our client state, yet our democratic congress overwelmingly votes to continue this.Are you telling this group that they should continue to not be represented? "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:37 AM:
" Bluto,The same argument holds for the Palestinians. They in fact have been engaged in defending themselves for decades.This is a recognized by the international community and by many powers in the United States. Until there is a validity in the process to ensure the rights of the Palestinians to a nation and an honest broker (strange oxymoron) there will never be a cessation of rocket fire or war crimes. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:38 AM:
" Kent,The writing has to have factual documented accounts. It is even better if it does not rely on the extreme bias of people like Bolton. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:40 AM:
" It's interesting Des,You're an Iranian (Persian) or Arabic Jew who lives in the US and defends those who'd have Israel "wiped off the map". Pretty tough for you to find a hole to crawl into if you ever need one isn't it?'Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniya and many other Hamas leaders (such as Nizar Rayyan, killed in Operation Cast Lead) have openly boasted about their use of their human shield tactics." From that second link above. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:43 AM:
" I leave you to assault my patriotism, citizenship, person hood and invite me to leave America now.There was no doubt in my mind that this would occur but it has been absolutely worth it.It is always easier to attack the messenger then to dispute the message. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:44 AM:
" desDon't ya think your hatred of Israel might taint your perception of what is factual and what isn't? "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:46 AM:
" Again Des,It's fine to question American leadership. Most of us around here do that at some time or another. But time and again your writings come across as Anti-American. You seem embarrassed to be one. You speak of the Middle East as if they're the greatest in the world in every way: Art, Religion, War, Humanitarian effort ... your lists surely do go on and on and on ... There is this constant hint of longing to be one of "them" in everything you write on this topic. How is that "questioning authority'?You remind me of Juan Epsteen Jr. from Welcome Back Carter in a way. He was the world's only Black Puerto Rican Jew. You have a similar colorful background. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:47 AM:
" Why would a person want to read all that crap you've posted here--you've posted too much. You should have trimmed it down if you wanted anyone to read it all. Some of us have better things to do with our time. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:47 AM:
" oh and I blew it ... Welcome Back "Kotter" was one of my all-time favorite TV shows. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:49 AM:
" Bluto,I am white dear. Whether or not I have Middle Eastern ancestry is not valid. I most likely do, we all most likely do.My mother and her parents are French. My father an his parents are Welsh and Irish.There may be some Native American on my mothers side of the family.I don't care what Hamas said or boasted about. I am not a Hamas adherent. I do know that the Palestinian people were so desperate as to elect Hamas. Hamas built their schools, government buildings ect, provided much needed charitable assistance, built a police force ect.Its true that current policies favor and promote radicalism. In fact this current incident will strengthen radical views and actions not dissuade it. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:50 AM:
" Speaking of facts, the way des perceived facts, I say it's a fact that she is anti-American. If she denies it, she's a liar, which mean you can't trust much of what she calls facts. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:51 AM:
" Kent,I in fact have not posted enough. There is no such thing as a proportional posting response. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:51 AM:
" Kent,Define anti-american for the readers please. "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:52 AM:
" Au revoir,I leave you to come up with a definition. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:53 AM:
" Anti-American is any person who has similar views of America that desertique does. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:54 AM:
" Des,I needed only one post to refute your "message". Did you browse those links or not? You haven't had time so there is no way you did. Your fingers have been trotting across your keyboard at light speed all morning. You're not interested in debate on this. You already know everything you need for making up your mind. Many of us recognize that as a result your only aim is to perpetuate political anti-Israel and anti-America propaganda. Like I said, proportionally it's the terrorist's only tool against the strong-arm attempting to defeat them.They're so good at it that they've convinced even you to do some bidding. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:56 AM:
" desYou haven't posted enough? What if you've posted so much that no one is reading what you've written. You're then simply rambling on to yourself. Is that the intent? Or, is your intent to get people to read what you write? Writing more will only make people ignore you more than they already do. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:57 AM:
" Des,You're white?Perhaps I misunderstood your comment after proclaiming your Jewish heritage and relating a conversation with your mother: "...being Arabic or Persian does not mean we are terrorists." "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 10:59 AM:
" desCan you tell us, using one or two concise sentences, why you are anti-Israel and anti-American? What is the foundation of your hatred? "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:01 AM:
" Des said, "I am white dear." Now I wonder if that was a typo and she is trying to tell me her name is "White Deer' and she is the worlds only Native-American, Iranian-Arab Jew. "

Kent wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:03 AM:
" BlutoThis wouldn't be her first stretching of the truth. "

Oxnard wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:09 AM:
" The truth about the Gaza strip.http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?_r=1 "

Rod wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:17 AM:
" No, Oxnard, it's an OP-ED about the Gaza strip. "

Oxnard wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:26 AM:
" Okay then, the FACTS about the Gaza strip. Please dispute what you think is incorrect. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:34 AM:
" I hear ya Kent! "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 11:44 AM:
" OK, Ox,I got to the first paragraph and had to type. The column asserts that most people living in Gaza didn't choose to live there because they were forced there in 1948. Are we to believe most people in Gaza are old enough to have been adults in 1948? I didn't choose to be born in West Covina either. My parents made that choice just like anyone in Gaza who chose to have a baby made that choice for their children. Who cares? "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 12:13 PM:
" So you have Rocky the bully. Let's pretend he's Israel. You have Poindexter the victim. Let's pretend he's Gaza.What does Poindexter do when Rocky tries to take his lunch money? He has to either hit Rocky when he ain't looking, get help from someone better at fighting or befriend Rocky somehow.In this case we have Poindexter hiring a martyr who isn't capable of fighting Rocky but sure knows how to smear his name. The martyr takes swings at Rocky knowing they can't hurt him and will get hit back. That's what the martyr wants. "See, Rocky keeps hitting me," claims the martyr.If Israel did or would go in unprovoked, why does Hamas continue to provoke by hurling rockets at random in Israel's general direction? Why not just lay down, be bullied and in the process Martyred? Could it be that Israel wouldn't go in unprovoked?Just pondering … "

de2whit wrote on Jan 11, 2009 12:30 PM:
" For a history of what Israel has been dealing with see the following link. It shows pages of dates/photos/etc. of what no one will ever see in the main stream media. There are dead children on both sides but only one chooses civilian targets on purpose.http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/Regarding Oxnard's "truth about the gaza strip" link, it is a complete misrepresentation and distortion of the facts. Oxnard, if you have to ask someone to point out what is wrong with it, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Do some research yourself..The arabs were invited to stay in 1948 by Israel. They chose to leave so the invading armies of the surrounding arab counties could destroy Israel and then the arab civilians would return.Unfortunately for them, it didn't go so well for the invading arab countries.Regarding the Op-Ed's war crimes statement, here is what the terrorists do:"A suicide bomber blew himself up on board a bus in Jerusalem, killing 22 people and wounding 136, many of them children and babies. 12 of the wounded are considered in very serious condition.- August 19, 2003""..was avenging the killing of a senior operative by Israeli troops..."One dead terrorist militant = 8 dead Israeli children, that's terrorist accounting for you.http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/ter2911.jpgand more:http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/ter0513.jpghttp://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/ter1842.jpghttp://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/2004/ter3740.jpg "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 12:41 PM:
" More sentiment from the famous anti americans at the Christian Science Monitor.http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0112/p09s01-coop.html"Cherryfield, Maine; and Washington - A million and a half Palestinians are learning the hard way that democracy isn't so good if you vote the wrong way. In 2006, they elected Hamas when the US and Israel wanted them to support the more-moderate Fatah. As a result, having long ago lost their homes and property, Gazans have endured three years of embargo, crippling shortages of food and basic necessities, and total economic collapse.Hamas never called for the elections that put them in power. That was the brainstorm of Secretary Rice and her staff, who had apparently decided they could steer Palestinians into supporting the more-compliant Mahmoud Abbas (the current president of the Palestinian authority) and his Fatah Party through a marketing campaign that was to counter Hamas's growing popularity – all while ignoring continued Israeli settlement construction, land confiscation, and cantonization of the West Bank." "

desertique wrote on Jan 11, 2009 12:47 PM:
" Kent,Why when I challenge Israels crimes does that make you label me anti American.Why do I have to give blind support to a theocracy that has killed thousands of other semitic people.Do you believe that Jews who disagree with the false theocracies of Israels leaders are also anti American?Why do you blindly follow the propaganda and lies from our government?If the carnage in the occupied territories (as designated by the United Nations) were white Christians would you still support unquestioning support for the decades long genocidal track that Israel has been on.Is the Pope wrong when he condemns Israel?Are the Popes representatives wrong when they call Gaza a huge concentration camp?Are you sure you are supporting at just cause? "

Crank Shaft wrote on Jan 11, 2009 12:59 PM:
" DesertiqueI don't think it's just that you challenge Israel's crimes, almost everything you post reeks of hatred of America. You are anti-American! Are you going to deny it and expect us to believe it? "

Crank Shaft wrote on Jan 11, 2009 1:00 PM:
" DesertiqueRather than try to deny that you are anti-American, why don't you do as Kent challenged you to do and tell us what the foundation of your hatred of America is. "

orion wrote on Jan 11, 2009 1:29 PM:
" Ahem.One does not have to be anti-American to know by now that Palestinians have been treated abominably for decades and Israelis have had the most generous sugar-daddy in the world. Let's get real here and at least try to view some of the politics with a less jaundiced view. "

Bluto wrote on Jan 11, 2009 1:46 PM:
" Orion,As soon as they stop strapping bombs to their back to prove what you just said, maybe the rest of the world will listen. "

orion wrote on Jan 11, 2009 1:54 PM:
" Bluto: There are crazies on all sides. I would say the Bush/Cheney duo are among the most heinous. Instead of strapping the munitions on themselves and going to battle, as a world power, they have sent our sons and daughters to do their dirty work.Let's point our fingers inward first and clean up our own backyard. "

Oxnard wrote on Jan 11, 2009 2:57 PM:
" de2whit--sorry i'm just getting back to you, i went for my sunday hour church service. To the topic, i don't agree 100% with the op-ed that i linked to but it interjects some thought of the other side of which is seriously lacking in the american dialogue. While it's true that in theory the Palestinians were invited to stay as per a UN resolution in 1947...I tend to think the locals acted in a way that most everyone would have under the circumstances. Imagine this scenario:A foreign body of nations decides to establish a government in Cache Valley comprised of a group that has recently suffered on another continent. For the sake of argument let's say the Darfurians. So the Darfurians are given your valley to form a government and country where they can all gather. The locals are invited to stay on their lands although they are given no assurances or legitimate explanations why this is being done. Meanwhile, the Idahoans, Wyomingians and Coloradoans are giving you a false impression that if you leave, they will take care of the Darfurians and then you can have your land back after the war that the Darfurians are sure to take on you for possession of the land. Now, I don't know how many would have stayed under these conditions but I'd bet that most would flee, if nothing else, than solely to avoid whatever wars were about to occur. Meanwhile, 50 years after you fled your homeland to avoid conflict, the Darfurians had you couped up in Snowville and wouldn't allow you to so much as take a shat without permission...I think you'd be a little upset as a people. Where was I even going with this? "

de2whit wrote on Jan 11, 2009 3:52 PM:
" Oxnard, you are the one that called it "The truth about the Gaza strip".Your description of the "theoretical" invitation to stay by Israeli leaders doesn't come close to what happened. If the locals were having their homes taken from them they should have had the b@lls to stay and fight, not use that as an excuse for their descendants to blow up children on buses 60 years later. But, they were not having their homes taken. They chose to leave because they wanted then what they still want today, Israel wiped off the face of the earth.That is why after Israel left Gaza they still weren't satisfied. And now, because Israel tries to stop them from importing weapons or exporting bombs they use that as another excuse to lob rockets out of Gaza into Israeli cities.My opinion? Hamas should stop terrorist bombings, recognize Israel and stop vowing for its destruction, and negotiate with Israel to help make Gaza a good place for them.But, since Hamas (duly elected to control Gaza by fully-informed palestinians) is a terrorist organization that doesn't recognize Israeli citizens' right to breathe the air I don't see that happening. From an article describing the election victory: "Hamas is currently maintaining a ceasefire, but remains committed to the armed struggle, the destruction of Israel and retaliatory attacks on Israeli civilians." <1/26/06>Israel has been negotiating and trading land for peace for 60 years and what have they gotten in return? It will only end when either the arabs succeed in the destruction of Israel, or resign themselves to live peacefully in the land they currently control, period.. "

Pimp wrote on Jan 11, 2009 4:04 PM:
" Orion - Speaking of "crazies", you're one of these crazies if you think that Bush/Cheney are the "most heinous"! "

orion wrote on Jan 11, 2009 4:29 PM:
" Good grief Pimp. Put on your reading glasses and quit twisting my words around.The Bush/Cheney duo aren't any worse, but they sure aren't any better than a number of other monsters in the world.A monster is a monster. They're all the same. "

Chime-in wrote on Jan 11, 2009 4:33 PM:
" I agree with Pimp!orion, you're not looking too good putting BUSH/CHENEY in the same basket as the "other monsters" in the world. But then again, maybe you don't want to look very intelligent. "

Chime-in wrote on Jan 11, 2009 4:38 PM:
" I agree whole heartedly with de2whit! Maybe desertbabe could sit down over lunch with de2whit."Hamas should stop terrorist bombings, recognize Israel and stop vowing for its destruction, and negotiate with Israel to help make Gaza a good place for them." "

orion wrote on Jan 11, 2009 5:06 PM:
" Leaders of a world power who would abuse their positions to lie to their people and invade a third world country to grab oil and money are certainly war criminals.As a result of their actions, 4,000+ American lives have been lost and tens of thousands are mentally and physically wounded for the rest of their lives; not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi "collateral" that have been affected.Monsters? You bet. Bush and Cheney should have been wearing the white hats in the aftermath of 9/11. Instead they wallowed in the stinking muck with the worst of them.They don't get a pass just because they are Americans. The rest of the world has let us know that in spades. They're right. "

Oxnard wrote on Jan 11, 2009 5:32 PM:
" I understand where you're coming from de2whit but I don't think you're looking at this very objectively or compassionately. I get the impression that you feel Israel is right and can do no wrong just as you feel that the US can do no wrong. And I do not support nor do I condone the actions or mission of Hamas.The UN appears to have gotten things wrong in the late 40's when they thought it a good idea to establish a Jewish state in the heart of radical Islam. The current situation is a product of that error. And neither side will likelyl be able to ever cohabitat with the other. "

Doubting Thomas wrote on Jan 11, 2009 5:41 PM:
" Well, folks, Mr. Orion has once again proven himself a loony. "

annakarenia wrote on Jan 11, 2009 6:29 PM:
" War is ugly. Racism is ugly....des, the mere comment...."muslim lover" is racist. "

de2whit wrote on Jan 11, 2009 6:51 PM:
" Oxnard, right now Israel is right but they are not immune from doing wrong. Also, I haven't mentioned the US in any of my posts so why would you say I think they(we) can do no wrong. Trust me, you don't want to get me started on the wrongs I think the US commits but that is what makes me objective on this. One thing has nothing to do with the other.I believe in the absolute right of personal and national self-defense. You can blame this on an action of the UN 60 years ago but I will continue to blame it on the terrorists and the people who vote for and support them. I can live with that even if it makes me look uncompassionate.While you may not consciously support the actions of Hamas, by supporting, or being compassionate to the people who keep them in power, protect them, offer their families as human shields, and teach their children to follow those footsteps you most certainly do.Palestinians celebrate 911 bombings:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8kCute kindergarten school play with green Hamas headbands and all:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-UwWe will no doubt have to agree to disagree. "

people's court wrote on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 AM:
" des Thanks for your ‘Proportionate’ response to this letter to the editor. "

Ruggles1 wrote on Jan 12, 2009 7:23 AM:
" (Yawn)...there goes des about how all her documented references are "facts"....Its just like the man made global warming believers who point to many slanted publications or even polls to make their case. Lest we never forget, there will ALWAYS be many publications to the contrary as well...Even with man made global warming by scientists, who tell us it is BUNK. The same holds true with all these pieces that des posts... ANYONE could also find "the other side" published and declare it as fact, also! I honestly do not want to bother referencing them at the moment, but we ALL know it could be done at the drop of a hat. It is always fun to see both sides!Arab Terrorists Suck! "

Ruggles1 wrote on Jan 12, 2009 7:31 AM:
" My point in the last post was that the actions of Hamas are not justifiable. I am not denying that certain actions led to their current frustrations. However, is it any wonder the folks in that region are often referred to as "crazy". "

caballo wrote on Jan 12, 2009 7:38 AM:
" The Arab countries are more to blame for the current plight of the Palestinians than the Israelis ever will be. They are nothing more than current pawns in the centuries long attempt by the Islamists to wipe Israel off of the map. "

Oxnard wrote on Jan 12, 2009 9:33 AM:
" de2--we will mostly agree to disagree. I do think that it is a disgrace to the Palestinians that they elected Hamas. It shows me that the Hamas propaganda is strong and compelling...and the Palestinians are not the most educated so they will vote with who they "feel" is on their side. I think it's the same in any election anywhere. It saddens me when I see clips of Palestinians celebrating things like 9/11 but I know that is not the feelings of the majority of them, only a few and where the cameras are staged. Anti-Israeli Propaganda. That is not the Palestinian people I have seen and interacted with in the West Bank and in Jerusalem. From my personal visits to these areas (although I have never been to Gaza), these people are humble, poor, have no desire to do America or Jews harm but just want to live their lives free of oppression and categorizing by the state of Israel. The keys that some of them are missing is that it is themselves they must press for peace and not through terror tactics or supporting terrorist organizations. It's hard for anybody to do a 180 in their thinking when raised to believe another. That is where I draw some sympathy for the people of Palestine. disclaimer: No Jews were harmed during the typing of this commentary. "

yoyoma wrote on Jan 12, 2009 10:06 AM:
" Oxnard, @2:57pm, what church do you go to? I thought you were a Greek Mythologist and thought the rest were just "fairy tales"? "

usugirl wrote on Jan 12, 2009 10:41 AM:
" Des: Go live in Isreal for a year with your family, have one killed by a rocket attack from Hamas, then tell us what you think about the conflict. "

cairo wrote on Jan 12, 2009 10:57 AM:
" usugirl: that's a simplistic and stupid way to look at this conflict. why don't you go live in gaza for a year, get maimed by an israeli air strike, or get starved by an israeli blockade and then tell us how YOU feel about the conflict. "

cachesoul wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:34 AM:
" >>>" Des: Go live in Isreal for a year with your family, have one killed by a rocket attack from Hamas, then tell us what you think about the conflict. "what a retorical comment, the same could be said of living a year in Palestine with your family. Innocent humans are being hurt on both sides. "

cheesericebeans wrote on Jan 12, 2009 12:39 PM:
" Great letter, It helped me gain perspective and see the fallacy in the Arabs "proportionate response" argument..Many of these comments have also helped me gain a better understanding of the conflict...It seems that Gaza/Hammas is propped up by Iran and their Oil money, so if we could all drive less than Iran wont have any money to fund terroism in Gaza..or we could anihilate Iran and we could have peace in the middle east and I can still drive my mini van yellow stone this summer (win/win). "

cairo wrote on Jan 12, 2009 2:05 PM:
" cheeseandbeans:your idea to annihilate Iran sounds great on paper until you take in to account that they have a legitimate military and are good friends with Russia and China who also have bigger militaries than even us at the moment. It would have to be an all or nothing approach as in carpet bombing and possibly nuclear weapons if we are going to get anything done by this summer for your mini van desires. You've seen the trouble we've had with 3rd world Iraq and Afghanistan the past 7 years the way we fight tactically like pusssies. "

round earther wrote on Jan 12, 2009 2:53 PM:
" The Muslim religion, in very large part, is violent disease on this planet, and should be wiped out in my opinion. They atack the U.S. in the name of thier almighty "allah", they attack Brittian, they attack Spain, they attack Isreal, they attack India, they attack Russia. Bottom line, who are they NOT attacking in the name of their religion? Go Isreal; kick their islamic, inbred, arses all the way back to the middle ages! "

usugirl wrote on Jan 12, 2009 6:46 PM:
" Sticks and stones... cairo. Maybe being kind would be better to make people listen to your arguments. I stand by mine. "

vicbevilacqua wrote on Jan 12, 2009 10:08 PM:
" Go Israel - keep pushing don't stop !! "

boris wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:29 PM:
" haha this thread is great. you've got desertique laying down the force in the beginning, knowing that she has to do it quick, before the chorus of idiots starts screaming "america-hater", "israel-hater", "terrorist-lover," etc...i wonder if these people realize that they are line-for-line manifestations of satirical ignorant, sheltered, unwaveringly patriotic, redneck cartoon characters, a la south park? classic. "

cheesericebeans wrote on Jan 13, 2009 7:45 AM:
" boris...stop reading/thinking and go back watching TV...its your friend, it thinks like you do. "


This is a letter to the editor of my hometown paper which I wrote in response to another letter. It was interesting to me to read the comments. I obviously provided a morning's entertainment for some people!

A

http://hjnews.townnews.com/articles/2009/01/11/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/letter04-01-11-09.txt